Lumpy Starts Over... Grand Daddy Purple Clones + Some Seedlings

LumpyStatus Senior MemberPosts: 180
edited January 2008 in Basics
Ok all. I am starting out fresh. I have taken some clones of Grand Daddy Purple and have 11 Rooted and transplanted into Sunshine Mix #4 feeding with lucas formula at full strength 0-5-10 every 3rd watering while under low intensity lighting. I have an additional 12 clones in the dome that should be rooted any day now as well as 4 Sage n Sour seedlings and 4 Stonehenge seedlings. The clones will soon be under an 8 light T5 for a veg and then transfered under 2x 600w HPS for flowering. Will keep this new topic updated as my progress continues.

Here is what I have so far; Clones are looking good, transplanted right after first roots showed and have been in sunshine mix for 3 days, roots are visible through the bottom of just about all the pots.

The problem I am having at the moment is with the seedlings. So far, since they broke ground they have had ONE feeding of gh 1-1-1 VERY light dose and then the next feeding was plain RO water. I have used foliar feeding 3 times so far, twice with 1-1-1 GH and once with spray n grow. They are starting to show some deficiencies and I am wondering what I should up my dosage to.

1. Should I use full strength lucas every 3rd watering like the clones, or should I use less? Please provide ml/gal if you are familiar with GH. They have pretty good root structure.

2. Should my foliar feed be higher ppm? Please give exact ml/gal if you are familiar with GH.

3. What do you think of the overall setup? Anything you all suggest or think needs improvement?

The box that you see them in now is not finished. There will eventually be a 2 ft tall cloning chamber on top with 2 florescent tubes and a 4ft tall veg/mother chamber below with a 4 ft long, 8 light T5. Will put FULL pics of the entire setup when complete for anyone interested in seeing what I am working with and possibly some will learn from it...
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  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    Anybody? I want to feed the seedlings tonight, so just wanted to know if I should give less or more. I have never grown from seed in my life besides my last failed attempt.
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    Merry Christmas all. Hope you all have a great holiday!
  • Green SupremeGreen Supreme Plant Manager Heaven BCPosts: 17,347
    edited December 2007
    You too LS. Peace GS
    Nobody wants to plant the corn,everybody wants to raid the barn.
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    Gave the seedlings full strength lucas flora nova grow. They look a LOT better and growing MUCH faster. Will give them plain water the next two waterings.

    Transfered my second set of clones into foxfarm light warrior (trying this stuff for the first time). It is mostly the same as the sunshine, except it has a LOT more perlite and mycorrhizzae as well as humic acid. Heard the myco can do absolute wonders for your roots and nutrient uptake, so thought I would give it a try. Anyways, I will post pics soon.

    Do you think that tap water chlorine would kill off the myco in my medium? Don't plan on using anything but RO, just curious if tap water will kill the beneficials.
  • The CannarchistThe Cannarchist Super Moderator Posts: 3,357
    edited December 2007
    Just aerate the water for 24 hrs before you use it
    Trailer trash hippie redreck
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    The Cannarchist;65925 said:
    Just aerate the water for 24 hrs before you use it
    Ok, thanks. Since I am already using the RO water, I should just stick with that or should I use tap instead? Do you think it is worth it for me to use the RO, or would it be ok to use the tap? I want things to be easy but I also want good results. So 260ppm bubbled tap or 4ppm RO water?

    Here is some pics of how things are going. HUGE change in the seeds and clones seem to be looking nice. So far I have 10 GDP clones 7 days into veg with full strength lucas flora nova grow, and I have 12 more just transplanted to light warrior also being fed full strength flora nova grow lucas formula. I am using nutes every 3rd watering, watering with plain water twice in between.

    I now have a completely seperate clone/seed chamber on top and veg/mother chamber on bottom seperate from the flowering area. This way I can save a little energy vegging under 400w hps and transfer to 1200w (600w x 2) for 12/12 only. Hopefully make it so I can have a constant set of plants flowering at all times so I get buds every 60 days or so.

    Attached images of how things are looking. My new clones aren't really happy but look good all the same, I think I should have left them under floros for a couple days after transplanting into soil before putting them under the 400w.

    What do you guys think? Any suggestions/critisism is appreciated. :)
  • brokencagebrokencage Redneck Weed wrangler Posts: 155
    edited December 2007
    Those seedlings are looking stretched.Bring the florecent right down 1''-2'' from the plants.id also put a small fan on them to strengthen the stems before they begin to fall over.When you transplant from the smaller pots bury them deep.other that that looking good!!
    "Let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    brokencage;66009 said:
    Those seedlings are looking stretched.Bring the florecent right down 1''-2'' from the plants.id also put a small fan on them to strengthen the stems before they begin to fall over.When you transplant from the smaller pots bury them deep.other that that looking good!!
    Yes, they did get a huge amount of stretch because the light was away too far when I first planted them. The light is about 2-3 inches away now, I am going to transplant them today and put them under HID lighting to veg for a while.

    Question - when vegging from a clone that just got roots, how long should it take (roughly) for a 4" clone to get about 12" tall, from the time you transplant? I just feel like my clones are growing so slow, but I might be wrong.
  • Green SupremeGreen Supreme Plant Manager Heaven BCPosts: 17,347
    edited December 2007
    Whats the temps like where the cuttings are ? Some things just root slower than others. Peace GS
    Nobody wants to plant the corn,everybody wants to raid the barn.
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2007
    The cuttings have already been transplanted into the mix. They took 10 days to show roots out of the rockwool, on a heatmat at 75f. I am refering to actual veg growth. I have lots of roots, just plants are a bit small and seem to be growing slow.

    I have some purpling of the leaf stems and some "droopyness". Take a look at the pics. I thought the droopy leaves were from overwatering the other night, then they looked alright and now they are droopy again (I didn't change anything since last watering). Also, I am noticing that I have some very nice looking healthy white roots, and some of them are brownish and I am wondering if I might have some type of root problem. Pics of that as well...

    They are currently getting 24 hour light, should I cut it back to 18/6?

    By the way, I do plan to transplant them very soon. Into 2 gallon pots.
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE! Hope you are all had a good night.
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    Alright, I don't know if these plants just have issues or if I am doing something wrong here. They go sort of "limp" sometimes, not caused by too wet or too dry, at one point during the day they will look good and leaves pointing up and then later in the day, they will look droopy and not healthy. The middle leaves (NEWEST growth) always looks good standing 90 degree angle reaching for the light, but other growth not so good.

    Also, VERY purple fan leaf stems and main stem also has some purple.

    What is the deal? Images below. Please help :( I cannot afford to lose any more plants.
  • brokencagebrokencage Redneck Weed wrangler Posts: 155
    edited January 2008
    dose it happen just befor the dark cycle? I have had plants that would lay down every evening then look great every morning I dont know what causes it.:chin: btw hows your ph??
    "Let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    24 hours for veg, don't currently have a dark cycle. Should I have one?
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 14,993
    edited January 2008
    they are sucking nutrients/sugars out of the old leaves...if the newest leaves look good then you are good to go...with your purpling I am guessing they are a bit on the cold side, what are your air temps at? the other possibility is the pH is out a bit (I am guessing) and maybe you should pour a bit of water through (around pH 6.2) and see what it comes out at on the bottom, you only need to add enough to get a little bit of runoff....looks like cold to me though (pale leaves, purpling petioles and stem)..
    about 18/6 vs 24 hours that is up to you, the plant will love you either way but if it is a case of too cold then 24/0 is what you want now
    also maybe it is time to expose it to a bit of hid light, few hours a day at least
    good luck and happy new years!!!...new beginnings
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    Temps are a bit low, 68f to 74f with lights on 24/7. As far as HID lighting, they already are. They are under 24/7 400w hps light, I only removed them for the pics. The 400w is the only reason my temps aren't eve lower! So they are "they are sucking nutrients/sugars out of the old leaves"? This means that they will go limp like that and then come back to life? This morning, I took a look at them and they look great compared to last night.

    As far as the purpling, it is normal for colder temps? Just want to make sure my ladies will be ok. Will do the ph test later.
  • Green SupremeGreen Supreme Plant Manager Heaven BCPosts: 17,347
    edited January 2008
    Hey dude about the leafs goin up and down, check this and see what you think. Yours may be different, just checking. Peace GS

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=175_1189462500
    Nobody wants to plant the corn,everybody wants to raid the barn.
  • brokencagebrokencage Redneck Weed wrangler Posts: 155
    edited January 2008
    Now thats cool and probobly what I noticed every evning.way cool thanks for sharing.:)
    "Let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 14,993
    edited January 2008
    LumpyStatus;66231 said:
    Temps are a bit low, 68f to 74f with lights on 24/7. As far as HID lighting, they already are. They are under 24/7 400w hps light, I only removed them for the pics. The 400w is the only reason my temps aren't eve lower! So they are "they are sucking nutrients/sugars out of the old leaves"? This means that they will go limp like that and then come back to life? This morning, I took a look at them and they look great compared to last night.
    no I was talking more about the colouration of the old/big leaves..sucking the green out of them, but you may be right that it could be a factor in the ups and downs
    As far as the purpling, it is normal for colder temps?
    yes, very
    these are young plants with not much roots so they will be more affected by the cold since most of the plant (for now) is above ground
    I knew a guy who would give the roots a shot of epsom salts like 1000ppm if there was too much purple in the stems and stalk, but I wouldn't advise doing that now, at least not until they are big girls
    see how it goes in a week or so...the new growth should come in with green petioles if it is a cold thing
    if you could put some 'blankets' around your area to keep in the heat that might be helpful
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    Alright c-ray, I got some info for you... Have a question though...

    You said run ph 6.2 water through, I ran plain RO water, and for some reason I cannot correctly read the ph in the water when it is pure. The meter says something like 6.8 when it is dry, then I stick it in the water and it shoots up to 8.7, then slowly comes down, when I shake it the ph drops more rapidly and it gets down to 5.9 when agitating it and then when I stop agitating it it climbs up to 6.3 ish. Very strange and this does not happen in my tap water. I also notice when adding a little ph up shoots it way up to 8 and adding a tiny bit oh ph down it drops to around 3.8. This is why I took the plain non-phed, pure RO water and did a "flush" without any ph adjustments at all (not a TON of run off, just enough to measure). What the hell is the ph of plain ro water at 1 ppm supossed to read?

    Here are my results after the flush, runoff:

    Cannot read on ppm meter because it is over 2000ppm and my meter max is 2000. So EC is 3448 (EC 3.4).
    PH is around 5.6 - 5.7

    So I am thinking toxicity right? Well, I am not really sure, they haven't been fed a TON of food and they only get it every 3rd watering. So I took a cup full of sunshine mix FRESH out of the bag and ran some ro water through it and I got EC 1157 (EC 1.1) and a ph of 5.9!!?? Keep in mind that I ran more ro water through this time so the numbers are probably even higher.

    What am I reading here? Obviously I just cannot measure the runoff ppm/EC of this stuff because even though it is supossed to have no nutes out of the bag, I am reading a lot of salts or something in there.

    Please tell me what I should do here. Is there any watering guidelines I can stick to specifically with the flora nova or PBP (I have pbp grow and bloom also, never use it), like feed with Xml/gal every watering and a ph of x during veg and feed xml/gal every watering with a ph of x during flowering?? I just want to get a crop finished here without all the issues. I swear I never had this many problems a couple years back when I ran blind with no meters at all.

    I just can't tell. The plants seem better when they have more food. It seems they look worse when they get plain water. However, after seeing a EC reading that high, I don't know what to think. Toxicity or my meter is reading something other than the food I am giving them?
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    Any clue?

    I only flushed two last night, and want to do the rest tonight. Just don't know if I need to ph my ro water or what.
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 14,993
    edited January 2008
    keep flushing maybe with warmish water, it'll help dissolve salts out of there if that is what it is...sunshine mix does come with a small amount of ferts but that sounds like you got a bad batch or something...what kind of pH meter do you have btw?
    ro water should be fine
    since it sounds kinda chaotic maybe try flushing one plant at first, and repeat and see if you can get it to stabilize
    the plants don't look that bad so it is not a big deal but it would be nice to get a handle on things
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    I have the Hanna 98129 here: http://hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=002003&ProdCode=HI 98129

    I don't think it is a bad batch for some reason... I have a couple more bales that I can check. I just don't understand, what should my reading be when running 0 EC water through the plain sunshine, brand new out of the bag?

    So when I flush, should I always use PURE RO water with NO ph adjustments? Will that be ok?
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    You want to know something really strange?

    That sunshine mix that I took straight out of the bag, I ran more RO water through it today to see if it dropped and guess what? The EC is now almost 2.0, HIGHER than it was yesterday???

    Almost like there is some kind of "time" release fertilizer in there. Or maybe it just isn't possible to measure the strength properly by testing the runoff.

    I have to imagine that some of the small peat particles as well as some of the perlite particles have to "breakdown" or have small enough pieces to actually disolve in the water, so could I be reading anything besides nutes?

    I just feel like the plants want more food, but I have flushed two of the bots twice so far and I am going to wait until they dry a bit and flush them again and see what I get.

    Also, tomorrow I will be testing my PH/EC pen by mixing up the lucas formula 0-8-16 and see if I get close to 1300 ppm. Also going to calibrate it again...

    I have read some posts that say ppm of sunshine mix starts out close to 300 to 400 ppm, and promix hp starts out at nearly 2000ppm? Is it actually possible that I am NOT overfeeding my plants and that I am reading somethign other than nutes? Should I give some more nutes and some plain water to see which ones grow better?

    After work tomorrow, I will give you all some new pics and test some things. I have to get this figured out, I don't think it is my ph/ec pen, I think it has something to do with the sunshine mix.
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 14,993
    edited January 2008
    I am not a big fan of the hanna meters, never had much luck with them but I was using the bottom of the line ones, that one looks better...good luck
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • brokencagebrokencage Redneck Weed wrangler Posts: 155
    edited January 2008
    Abit of advise here is take slow steps.I know the urge to fix it right now is strong but you can quickly make matters worse.take time after each step taken to study the results before moving foreword.I think a feeding after letting the mix dry abit will do them good.they appear to be deficient rather than toxic.also if your low lights on temps are 68 then your lows when the lights are out are probably abit to low.keep you medium on the dry side as cold and wet are bad combos.Do you have a small space heater to warm the area?
    "Let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
  • LumpyStatus Senior Member Posts: 180
    edited January 2008
    brokencage:

    I would have to agree that they seem deficient than toxic. Reason being is because since the flush, the plants are even lighter green than before. So for some reason the "salts" that are being measured coming off the runoff are not only plant "food", but something else as well. Especially since I have a cup of sunshine mix fresh out of the bag that has NEVER had any nutrients or plants in it, fresh, clean never used that I have flushed 3 times now with plain RO water and it is coming out at almost 800ppm @.7 conversion. This is after THREE FLUSHES of a REALLY small soil pot (less than 1qt pot). So this tells me that whatever I am measuring out of the pots isn't only what I am putting in, but something else mixed with it.

    So what I think I am going to try and do is just stop worrying about my runoff so much and just make sure that the plants look happy. Keep feeding them full strength every 3rd watering and monitor my ph going in.

    Answer me this: If my runoff was truely all nutrient buildup at almost EC 3.8 on some of the plants, considering that I feed with ph 5.8, my runoff ph should really be a LOT lower with that many nutes right? Nutes lower PH in the soil, and my runoff was 3.8EC and ph no lower than 5.6 or 5.7, I would think running RO water through a truely 3.8EC medium would leave me with a ph of 5.0 or even lower.

    Reason being, if I take my RO water and add 2.0EC nutes to it, my ph is going to drop to 4.8, easily. I always have to use ph up to get me to 5.8 when using RO water.

    Please correct me if I am wrong...
  • brokencagebrokencage Redneck Weed wrangler Posts: 155
    edited January 2008
    well to be honest iv never tested anything but ph in soil run off.But I would think that your correct and the higher the nutrient level the lower your ph would be.but this can also depend on how much lime has been added to the mix.I would work to bring that ph up abit. when you feed and water set your ph to 6.0-6.5.Again let your mix get semi dry between waterings as peat will grow more acidic in wet conditions.
    "Let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
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