EM (Effective Microorganisms) and Bokashi

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Comments

  • GoKart MotzartGoKart Motzart checking out the weather Posts: 961
    edited January 2008
    My limited experience consuming it was also enjoyable. Its an energizing grounding sort of feeling...that being said i know a person who started consuming it in farily large amounts(250ml - 400mls)per day and coincidentally over this time had some serius mental problems appear...there are many factors that where involved with his trouble but it was still a question at the time and still now weather it played any factor..to compair i consumed roughly 5 - 30 mls per day over the same period and recognized it as powerful stuff. Its like pure chi in a bottle! Now as for smoking weed grown with em..so far i the only word describe it is exquisite!
  • dpndpn Senior Member Posts: 723
    edited January 2008
    i wont drink it like guinness then lol... hope hes ok now though.
    i want to get one of those seed sprouters and sprout alflafa, broccoli etc and combine it with em for a super concoction for my plants and myself.
    how easy are those seed sprouters to make? they look quite basic?
    I do not particularly like the word "work." Human beings are the
    only animals who have to work, and I think this is the most ridiculous
    thing in the world. Other animals make their livings by living, but people
    work like crazy, thinking that they have to in order to stay alive. The
    bigger the job, the greater the challenge, the more wonderful they think it
    is. It would be good to give up that way of thinking and live an easy,
    comfortable life with plenty of free time.
    Masanobu fukuoka
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited January 2008
    little wicker baskets about 6" diameter work well for sprouting small seeds, dunk em a few times a day and keep them under a dome for the first few days until they are 'rooted'..then just mist them
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • caddiscaddis fish food Posts: 974
    edited March 2008
    Hey cray, Have you tried it in a res yet? It may lower ph but what will it do to the nutrient cycle?
    Back when I was using bio-buckets I was adding a pond clarifier which contained pnsbs, I saw some mad ph swings which I associated with the bugs consuming and making available nitrogen in the res. Floranova nutes.
    Looking forward to an update.

    Have you guys tried replacing a few ounces of molasses with barley malt? Speeds up ph drop by several days. Also have been brewing under flos in clear sealed pete bottles. They need to be burped every day, but I like the end results better than brewing with no pressure.

    My mycorrhizal maker suggests not using em until the plants/roots are 3 weeks old.

    Take care,caddis
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” JFK
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited March 2008
    I add em to a res but use that res right away so I have no idea what it would do if it were sitting around...

    good point about the young plants...since the em could potentially kill them when they are super young if they are not strong genetics
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • caddiscaddis fish food Posts: 974
    edited March 2008
    What are your thoughts concerning the myco being killed by the em? I have found a couple registered organic fungicides that were some form of bacillus or another and this was the concern from dr. mike.

    More study to be done.

    How do you like your ph thingy?
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” JFK
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited March 2008
    that's entirely possible, I could probably figure it out

    ph thingy do you mean ph pen?
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • caddiscaddis fish food Posts: 974
    edited March 2008
    Looked a little more substantial than a "pen" type. Worth its salt?
    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” JFK
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited March 2008
    oakton phtestr 30..yes deifinitely
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited March 2008
    caddis;68963 said:
    What are your thoughts concerning the myco being killed by the em?
    The follwoing is quoted from the text of a lecture by Dr. Higa: (pdf link)[URL=www.infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF%20KNF%20Conf%20Data/C3-2-055.pdf]"Effective Microorganisms: Their Role in Kyusei Nature Farming and Sustainable Agriculture" by Dr. Teruo Higa of the College of Agriculture University of the Ryukyus, Okinawa. Japan:
    (I sniped a good bit of non-relevent but interesting info and background on EM, read the PDF if you want to see it all.)


    These are the paragraphs that deal specifically with mycorrhizal fungi. I sniped these paragraphs from a larger EM section:

    ...
    While I have devoted most of my scientific career to the isolation and selection of various naturally-occurring microorganisms for their beneficial effects on soils and plants, my main objective was to find species that were physiologically compatible, and could coexist in mixed cultures. I have found that when these mixed cultures are introduced back into the soil environment from which they were isolated, their combined beneficial effects are often synergistic.

    Among the beneficial microorganisms that can effectively integrate the soil-plant-microbiological equilibrium include lactic acid bacteria, photosynthetic bacteria, ray fungi (or actinomycetes), yeasts, and mycorrhizal fungi. :D :D :D

    Here is whole EM section, it is full of good info:
    [quote]
    Effective Microorganisms: A New Dimension for Kyusei Nature Farming

    There are many reports in the scientific literature which have shown that the application of organic amendments, such as animal manures, crop residues, green manures, and various municipal wastes, to soils can often, at least temporarily, suppress the growth and activity of soil-borne plant pathogenic microorganisms. The reason for this is that the amendments themselves introduce extraneous populations of microorganisms with a wide range of physiological capabilities. Many of these are what we call
  • Mr.NiceGuy Junior Member Posts: 12
    edited March 2008
    c-ray;57178 said:
    I've played with it for a few years but just starting to get a good feel for it now

    I've mixed 1:1:20 (em/mollasses/water) with various raw materials and it breaks things down amazingly fast...and it is a composting process that conserves nutrients, compared to regular thermophilic composting which will always result in a significant loss of nitrogen

    I am doing a little test right now where I took some culled males about 10 days ago and cut them up roots and all and saturated it with some AEM (activated EM), the thinking here is that these males were in their prime veg mode just at the point of sexing so I am going to let it ferment for a few weeks and then blend it up and feed some plants with it, and compare to other clones of the same variety that did not get the treatment...if I get a chance I will try mixing some of that into the soil of a few plants and see what happens
    That sounds like a pretty good test, let us know how it turns out will ya? Some before and after shots would be great for comparisons.
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited March 2008
    c-ray:

    i got my order a while ago, I'm going to start it tongiht! :D :
    EM Plus
    EM Ceramic Powder

    The ceramic powder is interesting, it's a 'water structerer', all the SCD boakshi and EM products are made with it. From the label "The electromagnetic wave resonance and far-infrared vibration of the ceramics strengthens the beneficial and effective microorganisms". Usage 1tsp/gal of H2O.

    I'm gonna buy some live growing wheat grass from the pet store (it's for cats and it's like $5.00). I'm going to cut it and mash it then add it to the AEM mix, I'm only using a few leafs but enough to add life to the AEM. I've adapted the AEM directions from you and others a bit:

    1 gal of h2o
    3/4 cup EM plus, 3/4 blk strap molassis (sugarcane pref), 1tsp EM ceramic powder, 1tsp powdered Celtic sea salt, 1-2tsp mashed fresh wheat grass.

    -->when mixing ingredients h2o is 110-115 degrees

    -->when fermenting h2o is at 95 degrees. I'll use a fish tank heater probe

    I'm gonna make some bokashi this week and start composting as soon as it's done, yeah! :D I've talked to the local grocery stores and juice bars, they've all promised to give me there left overs.
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited June 2008
    to make this I blended up (with enough water so it would pour into the carboy) mostly grass and all sorts of weeds, whatever looked the most vital...even blended up a large thistle...that is a large carboy, 6+ gallons I think, the cap is just resting on the top

    I also added lots of kale, probably about 1/4, since the lactic acid producing bacteria on the kale will also help in the fermentation

    there is also handful of salt in there, some kelp, a splash of seacrop and 1 litre each of AEM and molasses

    I notice on the first page of this thread that FPE is recommended mostly as a foliar, well I actually planned on feeding this to some plants to see if has some nutritional qualities...I think they must be straining the liquid off and just using that while I am going to blend it all up again at least once more and then vortex brew it for a day and feed it to some plants, using all of the matter

    haha I notice they also say to keep it out of the sun, well I have done my best to keep this in the sun so far so good

    I went back and looked at some of the recipes on the first page, think I need to try some of that Fermented Chicken Manure... maybe I will try some Fermented Rabbit Manure or Fermented Earthworm Castings while I am at it..the possibilities seem endless
    fpe1.jpg
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    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited June 2008
    c-ray;74518 said:

    haha I notice they also say to keep it out of the sun, well I have done my best to keep this in the sun so far so good
    PnSB are promoted by natural sunlight (and esp >800nm ;) )...I always use sunlight or CFL when messing with EM...

    I think that info on dark is no good esp for FPE as the PnSB are a major part of what makes FPE work. I know when making EM it's best to be dark so the PnSB, latic acid bacteria, etc can co-exist...but after the EM has been created it's best to use light when messing with EM...
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited June 2008
    Hey yo,

    nice pic!

    you used some fresh, living plant yes? When making FPE I find chopping the plant matter in a food processor helps make a more uniform and better FPE.

    looking good
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited July 2008
    gojo;74529 said:
    you used some fresh, living plant yes?
    yes of course
    it is all from live plants
    gojo;74529 said:
    When making FPE I find chopping the plant matter in a food processor helps make a more uniform and better FPE.
    I used the vitamix 2hp blender, it is well blended and I will blend it again in a few days when it is well fermented
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    c-ray" said:
    I used the vitamix 2hp blender, it is well blended and I will blend it again in a few days when it is well fermented
    wow, 2hp, nice! that's a good idea, my food processor isn't nearly that powerful...you have all the neat tools! So are you screening out the plant matter and then re-processing?

    I'm curious why you want to re-process it? It seems like that would injure any microbes on the plant matter? And wouldn't the matter already have been chopped to it's limit the first time you processed it? I would think that would also add quite a bit of O2 into the FPE? Or are you including O2 for the first few days/weeks of you FPE creation?

    P.S.
    I've been playing with a Co2 tank, cyclestat timer and hose into the bottom of my EM mixes...I've been bubbling in a closed system with an anaerobic release hose (still testing that ;) ) to vent the excess Co2 and I'm also thinking of playing with the one-way gas release lids from a beer shop. This has the benefit of mixing the plant matter, stimulating and feeding the PnSB and mixing things up in general.
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited July 2008
    gojo;74557 said:
    I'm curious why you want to re-process it?
    because I am planning on mixing all it in the brewer for 24 hours, then applying it to the soil and some potted plants...I'm going to strain off a few litres before blending to save for further testing though
    gojo;74557 said:
    It seems like that would injure any microbes on the plant matter?
    probably

    gojo;74557 said:
    And wouldn't the matter already have been chopped to it's limit the first time you processed it?
    no not at all..it actually undergoes quite a transformation in the process
    gojo;74557 said:
    I would think that would also add quite a bit of O2 into the FPE?
    yup



    gojo;74557 said:
    Or are you including O2 for the first few days/weeks of you FPE creation?
    there is some O2 in the bottle, but I am not purposely injecting it


    gojo;74557 said:
    P.S.
    I've been playing with a Co2 tank, cyclestat timer and hose into the bottom of my EM mixes...I've been bubbling in a closed system with an anaerobic release hose (still testing that ;) ) to vent the excess Co2. This has the benefit of mixing the plant matter, stimulating and feeding the PnSB and mixing things up in general.
    cool that sounds like fun
    I would like to try something like that too.. a closed loop mini version of the big brewer for brewing aem but I think I would let it produce it's own CO2 first before cycling
    have you tried an aquarium check valve for release? or maybe there is some sort of pressure release valve like a rad cap type thing
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    c-ray" said:
    have you tried an aquarium check valve for release? or maybe there is some sort of pressure release valve like a rad cap type thing
    No, but that's a brilliant idea. I'll check into it today. The fish industry has lots of cool tools we can use.
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited July 2008
    okay so you changed my mind about the FPE, I ended up only straining it and mixing the liquid into the water that had been spinning for a day and bubbling for only for 5 minutes then applying to the soil using gravity and a hose

    I added about a gallon of the FPE so it was about a 1:100 ratio of FPE to water

    I still have a few gallons of mush
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited July 2008
    one of the components of EM, available from here for a whopping 3 bucks -> http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm

    from http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/koji.html#Natto
    [QUOTE]Natto is a soy product produced in Japan in a similar process for preparing Tempeh of Indonesia.

    However, for natto, a bacteria is used instead of mold to bring about the desired effect. Natto possesses a very unusual odour of the bacteria used, Bacillus subtilis var. natto overtones of ammonia produced during fermentation and breakdown of amino acids. Bacillus subtilis var. Natto produces viscous, sticky polymers primarily gamma-polyglutamic acid. Stirring natto with a fork produces long glossy threads, which gives natto a unique, unusual character. Health-promoting compounds are produced by Bacillus subtilis var. natto, namely gamma-polyglutamic acid and subtilisin NAT [nattokinase] and protease. The bacteria can also bio-synthesize Vitamin K. sub. 2 in the gut. Because of the characteristic odour, slimy appearance and flavour, natto is not consumed as much as miso in latter year. I just adore natto though... and as a man once said, "One may determine the health of an individual by the individual's appetite and readiness to try anything new at least once. If the food has an unusual aura surrounding it, then this can also determine a deeper health." [Now who could have said that, I wonder? ]. The quality of natto is determined by how far the polymer threads stretch before they break apart. These threads can usually stretch as far as one can spread their arms apart, before tearing.

    Click for larger viewNatto is traditionally prepared by boiling whole soaked soybeans for 8 hours until well cooked. The beans are strained, cooled and then wrapped in a pouch made from rice straw. The pouch is left in a warm spot for 1 - 2 days. Using rice straw, instead of modern day starter-cultures was credited not only for supplying the fermenting organisms, but also provided the aroma of straw, which consumers were fond of. The straw also absorbs much of the ammonia produced during fermentation.

    Today, if one can purchase ready-made natto, one can prepare their own by simply adding a small amount of natto to inoculate well cooked soybeans, and incubated in a covered container at 40
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    Hey bro,

    I am really stoked about your idea, I think we can do it! :cool2:

    PDFs:
    • first one details making and mixing EM mother sub-cultures into EM mother culture (props to biolover for this PDF)

    • second one is on working with bacteria

    • third on is catalog of Chinese company w/most of the bacteria, yeast, fungi we where talking about.
    mix-make-EM.PDF
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    working-w-bacteria.PDF
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    micrbe-list.PDF
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  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    Hey bro,

    Heres a DIY method of measuring the rH of EM. I've collected this info over time but I've yet to use it...to test rH (aka "ORAC" assays) at a lab it's around $800-$1500...
    http://www.brunswicklabs.com/overview_antioxidants.shtml


    [CENTER]Antioxidant level[/CENTER]

    To find the relative level of PNSB and 'strength' of liquid we need to find “relative hydrogen score” (aka rH or rH2 or RH). we can compute rH from pH and ORP. rH is an accurate measurement of the antioxidant level of AEM (a rH number closer to 0 means more PNSB and more strength)

    [U]Things you need:[/U]
    • ORP pen (about $150.00)
    • Ph pen
    • (an ORP pen does Ph too ;) )
    [center]
    Equation to find rH:
    (I want to make an excel/openffice math sheet to do this automatically so I can keep quality records)
    rH = ((ORP + 200) / 30) + (2 * pH) [/CENTER]


    http://www.emdisasterrelief.net/disaster_remediation/glossary.html
    ORP: Oxidation-reduction potential shows relative degree of oxidative power or reductive (antioxidant) power of a liquid. ORP is measured with a special probe and an ORP meter on a scale of +1,200 millivolts (mv.) to –1,200 mv., where a score of 1,200 indicates maximal oxidative ability and no reductive (antioxidant) ability, and where a score of –1,200 indicates maximal reducing (antioxidant) capability. However, since true hydrogen and reducing power is influenced strongly by pH as well, ORP alone is only a rough and relative indicator of true oxidative or reducing (aka antioxidative) power of a liquid, and relative hydrogen score (aka rH or rH2 or RH), computed from pH and ORP, is a far more accurate indicator; please see section entitled relative hydrogen score.

    Relative hydrogen score:
    Relative hydrogen score, also known as rH2 or RH score, is a score proposed by Clark in 1923, derived from the Nernst equation, which expresses true hydrogen concentration/power in a liquid far more accurately than ORP alone. rH score is computed from pH and ORP, and rH scores run from 0 to 42, where 28 is midpoint, scores approaching 42 indicate maximal oxidative power, and a score approaching 0 indicates maximal reducing or antioxidative power. RH score is often employed in various sectors of the beer brewing industry, in the high-end aquarium world and in the food industry (esp. bottling of juices, etc.) to indicate relative oxidative damage to a liquid product versus relative reducing power (aka antioxidant protection) levels in such a product.

    Good Levels of ORP: A finished batch of AEM or brew, depending upon exact formula, ingredients and the percentage of sugar sources by volume, will usually exhibit an ORP of below 110 mv at a pH of 3.5 or below, and an rH score of 17.3 or lower. In fact, dependent again on the afore-named factors, the ORP may be as low as –150 and the resultant rH score may be as low as 8.0. A good batch of EM microbial culture will not only exhibit a pH below 3.5, but also an ORP below about 130, and definitely below about 160. If it has been exposed to air for long, then these ORP values may be somewhat higher.


    Good Levels of rH:
    You want your rH to be around 5-16, 0-5 maybe too strong and most EM products are
    ORP (aka oxidation-reduction potential): The fresh samples of EM-X which I have tested, from a recently-opened bottle of EM-X sold in the USA, showed ORP scores in the range of +390 to +450 mv. across a series of tests. This is a bit unexpected..... most liquid products of anaerobic EM fermentation show an ORP far lower than this, usually below +150 and often in the negative range, well into the obviously reducing (antioxidant) range, largely due to the presence of simple hydride antioxidants. Indeed, many such liquid EM products continue to show this low ORP even up to one year or more after production and bottling.

    First, an introduction to the Relative Hydrogen (aka rH) score: Relative hydrogen score is often used in the higher-end realms of the beer-brewing industry and also in managing delicate salt-water aquariums and high-end fresh-water aquariums, and also in managing waste treatment plants and in measuring pollution in bodies of water. rH score is calculated from the pH and ORP and yields a pH-adjusted true measure of presence of active hydrogen, which is also known as reducing or antioxidative power. The rH scale runs from 0 to 42, with 28 as a midpoint, where a score of 0 indicates a substance which is maximally reducing (antioxidative on a primitive chemical level), and a score of 42 indicates a substance which is maximally oxidizing (as in oxidative radicals or pro-oxidants) on a primitive chemical level. On the other hand, rH score must be used and interpreted with care, since the rH score will often NOT reflect the presence of complex biochemical antioxidants (including vitamin C, vitamin E, etc.) Nonetheless, most liquid EM products show a strongly reducing (antioxidative) rH score of 16 or below, even many months after production; this is largely due to the presence of free phenols, which are potent "fast" (primitive) antioxidants, and also of the simpler hydride antioxidants (aka "H-minus" or the negative hydrogen ion, or even referred to by some authors as "atomic hydrogen".)

    Relative Hydrogen (rH) Score for EM-X: As noted earlier, most EM-fermented liquids show a strongly reducing (antioxidative) rH score of 16 or below. The rH score for samples from a recently-opened bottle of EM-X sold in the USA showed rH scores in the range of 28.0 to 29.8 across a series of tests, indicating a liquid that is essentially neutral or slightly in the oxidizing range insofar as presence of simple primitive oxidizers and antioxidants. This score was somewhat unexpected, due to the scores seen for other fermented EM liquid products, and it serves to underscore the assertion by Dr. Higa and folks within EMRO/EMCO that EM-X is quite different -- in terms of process, properties, and behavior -- from almost all other liquid EM-fermented nutritional products. The rH scores found suggest to this author that any antioxidants present are not simple hydride antioxidants but rather more complex biochemical antioxidants.
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    more ORP and rH stuff,

    This page has good info on all this stuff and other good EM info too:
    http://www.antioxbrew.com/science-backgnd-test-results-1.html


    [QUOTE]Presence of Simple Primitive Antioxidants Known as the Hydride Ion

    The fermentation process employed to create these brews produces copious amounts of the primeval negative hydrogen ion antioxidant, also known as the hydride ion, "H-", "H-minus", or the
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    [CENTER]Kombucha tea fungus (stater culture)[/CENTER]

    http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kombucha.htm
    "In trying to "define" Kombucha, we know that all strains have both gluconic acid and acetic acid and fructose. We know that it requires at least two microorganisms, a yeast and a bacteria. Acetobacter xylinum is in all of the ferments we've looked at, but the yeast vary. The Bacillus are a new twist that we found by totally ignoring conventional wisdom and isolating organisms just for the sake of isolating organisms (ie: without any regard for whether or not they would affect the ferment). At any rate, whether or not a ferment contains one or both ketos, or the diketo, or itaconnic, or propionic, or lactic, or any of the many other metabolites, is strain AND ferment dependent.

    If it contains gluconic acid and acetic acid with fructose, it's Kombucha."

    In Roussin's "Analyses of Kombucha Ferments," he reports "The typical isolations of microorganisms found in the Kombucha samples we examined are:
    __________________________________________________

    Acetobacter xylinum
    Acetobacter xylinoides
    Acetobacter Ketogenum
    Saccharomycodes ludwigii
    Saccharomycodes apiculatus
    Schizosaccharomyces pombe
    Zygosaccharomyes (still considered by some to be a subgenus of Saccharomyces)
    Saccharomyces cerevisiae"
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    Hey buddy,

    We may want to get milk kefir-grains (crystals) and not water...Acetobacter is a useful bacteria...


    [CENTER]The Acetic Acid Bacteria in Vinegar and Kombucha and SCOBY[/CENTER]

    http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kombucha.htm
    The genus group of acetic acid [vinegar] bacteria, Acetobacter specifically Acetobacter aceti which is also found in milk kefir-grains [but not in water kefir-grains], is also in part responsible for propagating another fascinating mother-culture, known as mother of vinegar [MOV].The mother of vinegar is an ancient name referring to the cellulose film or pellicle, in vinegar. This also shares *similarity with another natural culture used for preparing Kombucha. The pellicle which forms as a similar film on the surface of Kombucha is commonly referred to as a SCOBY [Symbiotic Culture Of Bacteria and Yeast] among kombucha enthusiasts.
    GEM has the milk kefir-grains cheap
  • c-rayc-ray germinating Posts: 15,078
    edited July 2008
    good stuff gojo way to produce

    gojo and I have been discussing what it would take to 'build' our own EM mother

    the theory is that in EM there are several subcultures

    we can produce and multiply these subcultures independently from each other then combine them to make EM mother culture as necessary

    EM is basically a mix of various microbes from various fermented foods + yeast + bifidobacterium (intestinal bacteria) + pnsb bacteria

    today I was wondering if the bifidobacterium is really necessary in agricultural applications...what do you think gojo?

    we'll acquire individual cultures over time but for now let us look at how we can do it for cheap by acquiring the various fermented food cultures from sites like [URL="http://www.gemcultures.com/"]GEM cultures and [URL="http://www.fermentedtreasures.com/"]Fermented Treasures

    other probiotics like bifidobacterium we can get in pill form in the health food store

    yeast can be acquired from grocery stores and u-brew shops, but also local wild yeasts can be captured by building sourdough from scratch

    even the yogourt and kefir starters in grocery and health food stores might be useful

    gojo is going to provide some info on how to capture pnsb from ponds

    we can capture wild lactobacilli via the BIM technique (beneficial indigenous organisms), and also when making sauerkraut and apple cider vinegar

    cannabis specific lactobacilli might be captured by fermenting young healthy cannabis plants that are grown from seed sown direct in the earth
    "One cannot develop taste from what is of average quality but only from the very best."
    Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    http://www.eminfo.info/moreem1.html


    What Are the Exact Names of the Organisms in EM, and Exactly What Does Each Do?

    A lot of folks new to EM seem to become obsessed with one or the other of these questions, asking to know more than simply the names and functions of the three general groups of organisms, which are:

    * lactic acid bacteria, aka LAB
    * yeasts
    * phototrophic bacteria

    and wish, instead, to know the names of each individual species....

    For the USA regional EM microbial inoculant, which currently contains nine (9) claimed primary organisms, the exact species claimed in the formula are shown below. Incidentally, at this time, the Japanese formula for EM as produced by EM Laboratory for EMRO Japan (please recall that there are plenty of other producers of EM culture in the world as well) consists of the same nine organisms. The organisms are listed below, broken into classes:

    * Lactic acid bacteria (these are beneficial organisms widely found in fermented foods, and in the GI tract of healthy humans and animals):
    * Lactobacillus plantarum
    * Lactobacillus casei
    * Lactobacillus fermentum
    * Lactobacillus salivarius
    * Lactobacillus delbrueckii
    * Phototrophic purple non-sulfur bacteria, aka PNSB (these are widely found in ponds, soil, on plant leaves, in ice, snow and in icicles):
    * Rhodopseudomonas palustris
    * Rhodobacter sphaeroides (aka R. spheroides)
    * Rhodobacter capsulatus
    * Yeast:
    * Saccharomyces cerevisiae (these are beneficial organisms widely found in fermented foods, and in the GI tract of healthy humans and animals)

    As breifly referenced above, EM formulations in the past have also included other organisms than those listed above, such as:

    * phototrophic bacteria other than the three named above, including Rhodospirillum rubrum
    * beneficial (non-pathogenic) members of the order Acetomycetes, aka Actinomycetales, such as Streptomyces and other so-called ray fungi, which are really a soil bacteria which happen to look like fungi (incidentally, it is many members of the Actinomycetes order which produce metabolites which are responsible for the musty, mildewey odor of old damp basements and the aged caskets favored by elderly vampires from the dark nether regins of Europe and Russia.....)
    * a number of websites and even older labels from EM formulations have claimed that some regional versions of EM have contained "actinomyces" (or, alternately, spelled as "actinomycets"), which is one family within the order Actinomycetales (mentioned above), but I suspect that they may not have meant the family Actinomyces, but rather the broader order name Actinomycetales (aka Actinomycetes), which would include the Streptomyces and other so-called ray fungi already mentioned above.
    * beneficial yeasts other than S. cerivisiae, such as Candida utilis
    * other lactic acid bacteria than the five species named above
    * beneficial members of the Streptococcus bacterial family, such as S. lactis or S. thermophilus; these are normal and beneficial members of the gut flora in humans and animals
    * beneficial members of the Streptomyces family (one of the so-called ray fungi), such as S. albus and S. griseus
    * beneficial members of the Propionibacterium family; these are normal and beneficial members of the gut flora in humans and animals
    * fungi (although there has sometimes been some confusion here, on the part of authors of some of these citations, with ray fungi, which are really a bacteria). Nonetheless, various EM formulas have contained fungi, usually representative sepcies such as Aspergillus oryzae and Mucor hiemalis.

    There is also some evidence that some EM formulations may have included beneficial species from the following families or groups:

    * Leuconostoc, a family of lactic acid bacteria
    * members of the Bifidobacterium family (bifidobacteria, like lactic acid bacteria and S. cerivisiae yeast, are beneficial organisms normally found in the GI tract flora of healthy humans and animals). This particular possibility is the least verified and least verifiable, and the hypothesis may well turn out to be specious.

    My own sense, much as what Dr. Higa relates, is that the exact species and names in EM formulations are not very important, but, rather, it is the synergy and relationship (interdependence) between them which is important.

  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    Hey,

    This one is useful and we can just cherry pick the type of microbes, while trying not really trying to mimic the specific species; but if we can we should. I don't think it's too important to copy Dr. Higa formula exactly, hell, it's been changed a lot in the past. I think if we have say 3-5 different spices of each type of microbe[1] we will have an EM as good or better than Dr. Higa's becuase you have to order Dr. Higa's, etc. Especially if we have a nice mix of PnSB and LAB...see my next post after this one...I think we may be real close to having it!

    [1] Type of microbes we need: PnSB, LAB and Yeast

    http://www.eminfo.info/moreem1.html
    [quote]
    The Larger List of Classes and Species of Organisms for Dr. Higa's Patents
    In light of the discussion above, it may be useful to briefly examine the larger, more inclusive list of possible candidate classes of organisms and the candidate species within them which Dr. Higa has published in some of his patents. The list follows:

    The patents specify that the microbial consortium must consist of at least five species of organisms, with at lest one species drawn from each of five general classes of organisms. The five general classes of organisms are:

    * lactic acid bacteria
    * yeasts
    * phototrophic organisms
    * Actinomycetes (aka ray fungi, but really bacteria)
    * mold fungi

    Specific Species Suggested in the Patents
    Please note that in the lists below, all codes appearing in parentheses with an ATCC or IFO prefix indicate the exact catalog number for the species/subspecies at a culture bank, or in a well-known database or culture catalog; e.g., ATCC indicates "American Type Culture Collection", while IFO denotes the IFO microbial database maintained by the Institute for Fermentation, Osaka (Japan).

    Lactic acid bacteria include for example microorganisms belonging to Lactobacillus, Propionibacterium, Pediococcus and Streptococcus. Specific examples of lactic acid bacteria include Lactobacillus bulgaricus (e.g. ATCC 11842) , Propionibacterium freudenreichii (e.g. IFO 12391), Pediococcus halophilus (e.g. IFO 12172), Streptococcus lactis (e.g. IFO 12007) and Streptococcus faecalis (e.g. IFO 3971).

    Yeast include for example microorganisms belonging to Saccharomyces and Candida. Specific examples of these yeast include Saccharomyces cerevisiae (e.g. IFO 0304), Saccharomyces lactis (e.g. IFO 0433) and Candida utilis (e.g. IFO 0396).

    Phototrophic bacteria include for example microorganisms belonging to Rhodopseudomonas, Rhodospirillum, Chromatium, and Chlorobium. Specific examples of phototrophic bacteria include Rhodopseudomonas sphaeroides (e.g. IFO 12203), Rhodospirillum rubrum (e.g. IFO 3986), Chromatium okenii and Chlorobium limicola. Please note that the family name Rhodobacter is often used interchangeably with the fmaily name Rhodopseudomonas, and hence they might be considered interchangeable mix-and-match family prefixes.

    Actinomycetes include for example microorganisms belonging to Streptomyces, Streptoverticillium, Nocardia, Micromonospora and Rhodococcus. Specific examples of actinomycetes include Streptomyces albus (e.g. ATCC 3004), Streptoverticillium baldaccii (e.g. ATCC 23654), Nocardia asteroides (e.g. ATCC 19247 ), Micromonospora chalcea ( e. g. ATCC 12452) and Rhodococcus rhodochrous (e.g. ATCC 13803).

    Mold fungi include for example microorganisms belonging to Aspergillus and Mucor. Specific examples of these mold fungi include Aspergillus japonicus (e.g. IFO 4060), Aspergillus oryzae (e.g. IFO 4075) and Mucor hiemalis (e.g. IFO 5303).

    Lastly, as already stated in the Are Effective Microorganisms (EM
  • guest Posts: 24,389
    edited July 2008
    hummm...:chin:

    mold fungi (fermenting) and soil-diesease control bacteria (Actinomycetes) are no longer added:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_Microorganisms
    • Lactic acid bacteria: Lactobacillus plantarum; L. Casei; Streptococcus Lactis.


    • Photosynthetic bacteria: Rhodopseudomonas Palustris; Rhodobacter Sphaeroides.


    • Yeast: Saccharomyces Cerevisiae; Candida Utilis (no longer used) (usually known as Toula, Pichia Jadinii).


    • Actinomycetes (no longer used in the formulas): Streptomyces Albus; S. Griseus.


    • Fermenting fungi (no longer used in the formulas): Aspergillus oryzae; Mucor Hiemalis.
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